Carlos Perez still doesn't get it:

Okay, I don't want to be controversial, however after reading the latest blog from the CTO of JetBrains, I just got to sound off! For the uninitiated JetBrains is the developer of the kick-ass Java IDE IntelliJ IDEA. It appears that JetBrains has a plan to develop, god forbid, a addin for VS.NET!

See, Java developers have for a while now have a enviable position of having bleeding edge coding tools. Something many in the .NET community aren't aware of and therefore don't miss.

Now, I'm not against companies exploring new market opportunities. However, isn't creating an addin for VS.NET just like selling arms to your enemies?

First of all - "don't want to be controversial"? Who do you think you're fooling, Mr. 101?

Second of all, Microsoft may be Java's enemy, but JetBrains is not Sun. JetBrains' "enemies" are IDEA's competitors: Borland, IBM, Sun, etc. And in case you missed the news Carlos, Borland too has ventured into the .NET market. It simply makes economic sense - There is a huge market for .NET development tools and Borland and JetBrains would love to get a little piece of that action.

And just like IntelliJ IDEA won't persuade many .NET developers to switch to Java, neither will an IDEA plugin into VS.NET be a reason for many Java developers to switch to .NET. It caters to a different market - developers that have already decided to go with .NET.

Because of the many similarities between .NET and Java, it should be relatively easy to convert quite a bit of IDEA's code-base to .NET. Considering a lot of of IDEA's features (most notably refactoring support) are missing in VS.NET, I think this is an excellent move on their part and should prove to be an extremely useful plugin.

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Why do you respond to him? Why does anyone? He sucks up more bandwith than any other idiot I know. 98% of what he says about .NET is blantly technically inaccurate (as pointed out point by point by many people in rebuttals on his 100 list). It's people like this that give the profession a black eye and polarize it. People who are mature are able to evaluate the merits of both Java and .NET without the politics and emotions. People who are childish like him can't. They have never seen anything other than Java. They refuse to even look at anything that would upset their apple cart. Their world is simple and closed. Its a waste of time. I highly encourage people to not give him the time of day anymore. He hasn't deservedit. There are many fine people in the Java community who know what they are talking about that deserve attention from .NET people. He isn't oneof them.

Posted by Anonymous at October 6, 2003 11:50 AM

Hmmm? I don't recall reading a "point-by-point" rebuttal of the 101 list? I've seen some disagreements with some of the points, but in general even the "rebuttals" tended to have a favorable conclusion towards java.

As far a .NET merits, what again are you talking about?

Posted by a dude at October 6, 2003 12:17 PM


Who exactly do you think is "polarizing" the profession?

Microsoft has a choice to pursue a standard language for the enterprise, instead it goes of on its own building its own alternative. An alternative that doesn't provide any significant improvement over the original except to polarize the profession.

So if you refer to java programmers as being "closed minded" then it's like calling the teapot calling the kettle black.


Posted by Carlos E. Perez at October 6, 2003 12:40 PM

Sun's standard? One that they refuse to sumit to ECMA? One that they sue people with? One that works with only one language? The one master solution to all the world's problems? Not only is it naive to think that all problems can be solved with *one* computer language, but its stupid. As to the merits, I have programmed in Java for 5 years and I have a lot of experience in .NET. Of you only look at C# compared to Java, then you are missing the whole .NET boat. And yes, .NET has a lot of deep technical advantages in may areas as well as Java having some in other areas. So much so that now Java is coping features form .NET for theior next release but I'm sure you'll never see that. I prefer a runtime that natively supports many languages and interoperates wuth them all. The point is that people like you who despise Microsoft for other reasons (the Al Gore election syndrome) would never even look at .NET or anything Microsoft would ever do fairly. Its a waste of time arguing with you. Your 100 Java advantages list was riddled with inaccuracies, as well as things that made no sense, like refactoring. Refactoring is a thing that developers do, not a language. Some of us were doing it with Smalltalk 2o years agop when you were still in diapers and long before Java arrived. I do Refactoring in .NET *every* day, as a matter of good programming not because its a langauge thing. Andyes there are tools. Same thing with VMs. Java has not invented anything new that wasn't there with Smalltalk and Lisp but when you are religious, you are religious.

You are close minded. Have you ever even tried a sizable project in .NET to really compare on technical merits instead of religion? Have you tried other languages? I don't care about Java or .NET. All of them are simply tools in a toolbix to be used in certain solutions as are C++, Smalltalk, Ruby, etc.

Dude, you didn't see rebutals from Ted Neward (who knows more about Java than Carlos will ever know), Jason Whittington, Peter Drayton as well as a dozen others? Most people who want a technical discussion will at least try to evaluate other viewpoints. Carlos isn't one of them. He has only one view, one religion, one way of life and screw everything and everyone else.

Posted by Anonymous at October 6, 2003 1:26 PM

> Okay, I don't want to be controversial

No you do, thats what you live on. Thats all you post on.

Posted by Anonymous at October 6, 2003 1:28 PM

>Now, I'm not against companies exploring new market opportunities. However, isn't creating an addin for VS.NET just like selling arms to your enemies?

>First of all - "don't want to be controversial"

Contradiction 101 anyone? Look up contradiction in the dictionary and this would be the definiton. Childish?

Posted by Anonymous at October 6, 2003 2:13 PM

"I do Refactoring in .NET *every* day"

-- As true as running .NET on 64 bit windows.

Posted by the dude at October 6, 2003 5:13 PM

Umh, anonymus, there are actually a lots of good reasons for some people not to play nice with MS, Microsoft isn't the fairest player in the world, you know. So, even if they do seem to make something tehnically right, .NET, "see, our Java with 5 top RFE's from Suns Bug database, with support for maaaaany languages" doesn't really bring that much new to the table. If Borland or SGI or Novell or "pick your favourite smaller company" invented something like that, well, we would all be laughing are asses off why oh why on earth someone spent few bilions to recreate Java with PInvoke and support for Ruby. One could surelly argue, if MS was sooooo inspired to create an uber framework, mother of all past and future ones, for benefit of all mankind, programmers of all nations, colours, language and platform preferences, they kinda could made it cross platform. From start. Not that Rotor thingy, neither Mono, nor dotgnu. Full monty, .Net for Unixes, MS edition, free and open for all. Which would be greater tehnical challenge from enabling support for few dozen of needed and not needed languages, inflating the numbers more with some esotherical D#, F#, "language of the day"# new ones.
Now, I'm sure you've heard of Jython, which is, um, well, another language that compiles to Java bytcode. So, can it be done with Java? It seems that it can. Sure, Sun could do more, tweak the damn thing a little, break compatibility, and voila, VB for Java is just around the corner. We are all eagerly waiting for it. Going with one language was design decision, you don't like it, but I sure do; it makes managing a team much more easy than having to cope with everyones favourite flavor. MS with 4 + all other not needed much, well, their design decision; write in any language, but stay on Windows. But if JCP decides that Java the platform needs more than Java the language, well, trust me, it is not that hard to compile few more languages to VM, is it? After all, MS did it. Btw, you are aware that not all languages are equal in .NET world? Like, you know, Visual Basic had to becoume Visual Fred to fit in that multi language wonder.

Well, however, to adress your concerns about Sun not being open enough with Java:
Apache Software Foundation
Apple Computer, Inc.
BEA Systems
Borland Software Corporation
Cisco Systems
Doederlein, Osvaldo Pinali
Fujitsu Limited
Kreileder, Juergen
Macromedia, Inc.
Nokia Corporation
SAS Institute Inc.
SavaJe Technologies
Sun Microsystems,
Zukowski, John A.

are on expert group to create that new version of Java (J2SE 1.5) that you are mentioning. Like, full API, not just subset (heh, nice trick there). And they are involved, working hard, and are not whining about non submital to ECMA. And ONLY time Sun sued someone, well, wasn't that MS? With some contracts involved maybe? I'm sure if I sign something with you, and then do the opposite, you will be OK with that, open minded person like you doesn't mind to be screwed up from time to time. Beware, if you sue me for not doing what we agreed upon, you will be the bad guy, not me.

Posted by manga at October 6, 2003 5:17 PM

Gee I'm convinced now. Are all you Java people this idiotic sprouting mis-spelling religious rantings or is it just some of you? What does this "super" next version of Java look like? .NET today. Features directly copied. If you think its Java with P/Invoke you haven't spent any time with the CLR. Period. Don't give me the bytecode tweaking crap. Any bytecode can be tweaked. Thats miles difference from a platform that has constructs defined in metadata ECMA specs that are totally independent of langauge and platform. Gee, the CLR seems to run cross-platform juts fine on my Mac OS/X system as well as my Linux via Mono as well as all Windows machines. Do some research before you sprout more of Scott's cool-aid religious rantings. I will not think. I will march in line to one language to rule them all. All problems are one solved by one language always. Sound like Nazi Germany yet?

Posted by Anonymous at October 6, 2003 8:43 PM


First, why can't you reveal your identity?

Maybe it's because everything your saying is in the realm of pure fiction.

Rotor on OS/X and Linux on Mono... pure unadulterated fiction.
ECMA... even more ficition.

Posted by the dude at October 6, 2003 9:19 PM

There you go stirring up more trouble, Luke (or is that Darth Hutteman?). :) You have been whining about the lack of refactoring tools since I introduced you to C#. Now that you have the potential of getting it, you have to start another religious debate. Speaking of which, I still like checked exceptions. :-D

Posted by LES at October 6, 2003 10:24 PM

Hmm, so the Rotor running on my Mac OS/X machine next to me, and the Mono running on the Linux in front of me are just my imagination? Must be a grand illusion - maybe you want to let Miguel know that all that stuff he is doing is not really happening. And I guess Ecma and ISO must not have really printed all those specs I have and millions of people have. Okay whatever. Thats your typical Java response.

Whatever. This got far from my point and I started doing some Carlos here myself.

Posted by Anonymous at October 6, 2003 11:43 PM

heh, the only person I know currently playing with Rotor on OSX is Sam Gentile. So, a) it CAN be done. b) I do hope thats Sam coz that'll add alot of weight to his words, all of which I agree with 100% :-)

Posted by senkwe at October 7, 2003 4:22 AM


Some of your arguments are right, however, none of them are responses to the arguments of the people you are arguing with. Strange situation, but you seem to be arguing with the arguments you think those people have. Or maybe you just can't read what they wanted to say.

Of course Carlos IS balanced, and his 101 list contains at most 20 valid arguments. But as the others said, besides that you think (belive , want to think, think that we think, etc.) that the Java language and the Java VM are the same, that's not true.

First of all, there are lots of languages that compile to java bytecode, i.e. the java VM is capable of running multiple languages, just as the CLR. Period. If you don't believe, you can look at this page:
There is LISP, TCL, Python, functional languages, Basic, and a lot of other ones.

Second, java can be compiled to native code (either using gcj or Excelsior JET), though it's not that important for most of us.

Others said that the .NET thing is not multiplatform, you say that it is. Others said that it's not a standard you say that it is (Java isn't one as well!). Well, you have some right in what you say, there is Mono for linux, but AFAIK it's far from complete, and questionable if it can ever be made complete, as MS hasn't made all of it's API a standard (so much for the standardisation issue). What it means is that a subset of the .NET platform is available on more that one platform, and a bit larger subset will be available when those ports become more mature. However, it is not yet truly multiplatform (at least not to the degree as java is) and it will never be, unless
1., MS does it for Linux and Mac
2., MS opens up all of its APIs (which is unlikely to happen)

So even you have Mono on your linux machine, it doesn't mean that any .NET application will run on it, even if it's coded using managed code only. Actually, most of the .NET apps won't run on it. If you develop for Mono, then of course (well, I guess) it would run on a windows .NET installation, but I wouldn't call it multiplatform.

And as only the core APIs are standardized, I wouldn't call the whole system a standard thing. It's hardly more standard than java. Try to live with it.

Posted by Atleta at October 7, 2003 9:29 AM

I like both - Java and .NET world (and many, many more). I just don't get it when someone is limiting his/her skills just because of "hate", "enemies" and so on. More technologies more marketable you are. Simple.

Posted by landing gear at October 7, 2003 10:52 AM

Anonymous may wanna get a "Back to the Future" newspaper -- it reads "Microsoft pulls plug on Mono". Nuff said.

Yes, Virginia, there *are* reasons for software developers to also be political activists.

Posted by Steve Magruder at October 7, 2003 10:57 AM

what kind of stupidity is this? Intellij is there not to satisfy other people's idealism, they are there to to make money, and that by offering the best that they can be. Geez, end of argument. What is wrong with you people?

Posted by chiara at October 8, 2003 7:56 PM
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